Subject
Re: Rosebud (fwd)
From
Date
Body
From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
I meant to include Proust, but it was past my bedtime. The phrase should
have read "Some of the major influences were Shakespeare, Milton,
Browning, Flaubert, and Pushkin." I think what is arguable is the
necessity of seeking "influences" for understanding an artist. The problem
I have is that we seem to be saying that "If A hadn't written, B wouldn't
have either." or that "A did something in a particular way because B had."
and I am not sure those are valid conclusions. At any rate, I am not sure
it adds anything to our picture of the work of art.
On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
> ** I believe Kiran Krishna probably meant "Gogol and, of course, Pushkin"
> but he will clarify it himself, of course. For my own part, I find it
> somewhat odd that we are seriously discussing the possibility that any
> writer, including Nabokov, could possibly escape the influence of others,
> especially those who were writing before him and whose books, of course,
> shaped his/her sensibilities as a child or a young person. The case with
> writers who were writing at the same time should be harder to assume
> because it does not quite work the same way but even there, when a writer
> reads another writer, the process is of course similar to any craftsman
> observing another craftsman's work and looking for elements he/she can
> successfully introduce into one's own art. This is what being a true
> professional is all about -- and Nabokov was obviously that. GD**
>
> From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
>
> I think influences can be easily exaggerated ('Without Flaubert there
> would have been no Marcel Proust in France, no James Joyce in Ireland.
> Chekhov in Russia would not have been quite Chekhov'), but the strongest
> 'influences' on VN were, I believe, Browning, Flaubert, Pushkin and, of
> course, Pushkin. I don't think VN maintained that he was totally without
> precursors, but what he did (legitimately) protest against was
> influence-mongering for its own sake. Interestingly enough (One thinks of
> Borges), this works both ways: I cannot read (say) 'Porphyria's Lover',
> 'Pippa Passes', or 'Andrea Del Sarto' (with its wonderful tint of
> silver-gray) without thinking of VN, especially since in my own journey,
> Browning came a long time after Lolita. Similiarly, I cannot read Thomas
> Browne's 'Urn Burial' without thinking of (the disappointingly
> underestimated) De Quincey. Pleasant as those associations are, I am
> sceptical regarding how much they have to offer by way of understanding.
>
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
>
> > From: Rodney Welch <rodney41@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Since reading Proust, I've found it hard to believe that Nabokov was totally
> > invulnerable to influence. I don't know if "Lolita" could have been created
> > by someone who had not read Proust, and not just because of the allusions;
> > it's hard for me to read "Lolita" without sensing distant echoes of
> > Albertine, Gilberte, et al. The same goes for Nabokov's first novel, "Mary."
> > Indeed, "In Search of Lost Time" could serve as a title for "Lolita" had it
> > not already been taken. Aren't both novels testaments to the recreative and
> > inventive possibilities of memory?
> >
> > I don't think that there is a "Citizen Kane" connection with "Lolita,"
> > except in one rather obscure coincidental sense: the rose/vagina connection.
> > "Rosebud," as most fans of the Welles film know, was a bit of a dirty trick
> > on the part of screenwriter Herman Mankiewicz, since he had known Kane's
> > model, William Randolph Hearst, personally, and knew that "Rosebud" was his
> > pet name for the pudenda of his lover, the actress Marion Davies.
> >
> > Dolores Haze, too, is constantly connected with the image of a rose --
> > beautiful but temporary -- and Humbert refers to her pubis as her "brown
> > rose."
> >
> > This is not, however, an uncommon literary image, and I doubt one had much
> > to do with the other.
> >
> > Rodney Welch
> > Columbia, SC
> >
> > > From: Galya Diment <galya@u.washington.edu>
> > > Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:27:19 -0800
> > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Rosebud (fwd)
> > >
> > > From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
> > >
> > > I usually accept Nabokov's insistent denials of influence (Ignoring them
> > > has led to some rather dreadful errors in the past: Someone's - Her name
> > > escapes me - essay on Kafka comes to mind; Influence, as Appel
> > > acknowledges, is a troublesome question), and I agree that there is no
> > > reason to doubt his denial. However, I hadn't read the book since I
> > > couldn't find it at our library, and I presumed that it was no different
> > > from the essay. Still, as with Stravinsky, there are some interesting
> > > similarities.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Brian Walter <bdwalter@artsci.wustl.edu>
> > >>
> > >> Appel's essay "Nabokov's Dark Cinema" may not mention Welles, but his book
> > >> *Nabokov's Dark Cinema* (OUP, 1974) certainly does. Appel does in fact
> > >> verify that Nabokov loved *Citizen Kane*; apparently, Nabokov described it
> > >> as "Extraordinary! A masterpiece" (p. 57). Appel even asks Nabokov about
> > >> the famous "'Rosebud' ending," which Welles labeled "dollar-book Freud"; by
> > >> way of reply, Nabokov apparently "shrugged his shoulders, and the
> > >> conversation turned to soccer" (57-8).
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately for this line of inquiry, the same passage has Nabokov
> > >> rejecting any possibility of influence or allusion, as he informed Appel
> > >> that he had seen *Citizen Kane* only in 1972, on Swiss television (57).
> > >> It's probably a good idea to take any of Nabokov's insistent denials of
> > >> influence or allusion with a grain of salt (apart from Freud, few things
> > >> seem to have sparked Nabokov's competitive zeal more readily than a
> > >> suggestion that he was not self-engendered as a writer, one who effectively
> > >> skipped the gestation of apprenticeship and imitation that so many other
> > >> artists acknowledge; see, for instance, just about any interview in *Strong
> > >> Opinions*). But in this case, there seems no reason not to take Nabokov at
> > >> his word.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Galya Diment <galya@u.washington.edu>
> > >> To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:40 AM
> > >> Subject: Rosebud (fwd)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
> > >>
> > >> It just occured to me that in the following sentence (Part 1, Chapter 7,
> > >> Page 23 in the annotated edition):
> > >>
> > >> "Next day, an asthmatic woman, coarsely painted, garrulous, garlicky, with
> > >> an almost farcical Provencal accent and a black mustache above a purple
> > >> lip, took me to what was her own domicile, and there, after explosively
> > >> kissing the bunched tips of her fat fingers to signify the delectable
> > >> rosebud quality of her merchandise, she theatrically drew aside a curtain
> > >> to reveal what I judged was that part of the room where a large and
> > >> unfastidious family usually slept."
> > >>
> > >> Rosebud could be interpreted as a reference to Orson Welles' Citizen
> > >> Kane. Of course, allusions cannot really be discerned from single words,
> > >> but Welles, like a number of other great artists, has a fascination with
> > >> vulgarity (though in Citizen Kane, the vulgarity is closer to kitsch
> > >> than poshlost'). Ada (especially Dan Veen, the dream chapter - Part 2,
> > >> Chapter 3, and the dozen elderly townsmen of Part 1, Chapter 39, which
> > >> reminds me of the dozen vacationers in the west wing of Xanadu) suggests
> > >> Citizen Kane much more strongly. However, I find that Appel's essay (which
> > >> among other things is remarkable for its appreciation of Stravinsky's
> > >> Oedipus Rex), 'Nabokov's Dark Cinema' (collected, if you cannot find it by
> > >> itself, in 'The Bitter Air of Exile') makes no mention at all of Welles,
> > >> and neither, I notice, does Vladimir Nabokov: The American Years. Still, I
> > >> think it would be a fascinating area of research, and would be delighted
> > >> to hear other views on this subject.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > > yours
> > > Kiran
> > >
> > > "I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
> > > - Vladimir Nabokov
> > >
> > > http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
> > >
> > > http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy
> >
>
> Cheers!
> yours
> Kiran
>
> "I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
> -Vladimir Nabokov
>
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
>
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy
>
Cheers!
yours
Kiran
"I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
-Vladimir Nabokov
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy
I meant to include Proust, but it was past my bedtime. The phrase should
have read "Some of the major influences were Shakespeare, Milton,
Browning, Flaubert, and Pushkin." I think what is arguable is the
necessity of seeking "influences" for understanding an artist. The problem
I have is that we seem to be saying that "If A hadn't written, B wouldn't
have either." or that "A did something in a particular way because B had."
and I am not sure those are valid conclusions. At any rate, I am not sure
it adds anything to our picture of the work of art.
On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
> ** I believe Kiran Krishna probably meant "Gogol and, of course, Pushkin"
> but he will clarify it himself, of course. For my own part, I find it
> somewhat odd that we are seriously discussing the possibility that any
> writer, including Nabokov, could possibly escape the influence of others,
> especially those who were writing before him and whose books, of course,
> shaped his/her sensibilities as a child or a young person. The case with
> writers who were writing at the same time should be harder to assume
> because it does not quite work the same way but even there, when a writer
> reads another writer, the process is of course similar to any craftsman
> observing another craftsman's work and looking for elements he/she can
> successfully introduce into one's own art. This is what being a true
> professional is all about -- and Nabokov was obviously that. GD**
>
> From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
>
> I think influences can be easily exaggerated ('Without Flaubert there
> would have been no Marcel Proust in France, no James Joyce in Ireland.
> Chekhov in Russia would not have been quite Chekhov'), but the strongest
> 'influences' on VN were, I believe, Browning, Flaubert, Pushkin and, of
> course, Pushkin. I don't think VN maintained that he was totally without
> precursors, but what he did (legitimately) protest against was
> influence-mongering for its own sake. Interestingly enough (One thinks of
> Borges), this works both ways: I cannot read (say) 'Porphyria's Lover',
> 'Pippa Passes', or 'Andrea Del Sarto' (with its wonderful tint of
> silver-gray) without thinking of VN, especially since in my own journey,
> Browning came a long time after Lolita. Similiarly, I cannot read Thomas
> Browne's 'Urn Burial' without thinking of (the disappointingly
> underestimated) De Quincey. Pleasant as those associations are, I am
> sceptical regarding how much they have to offer by way of understanding.
>
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
>
> > From: Rodney Welch <rodney41@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Since reading Proust, I've found it hard to believe that Nabokov was totally
> > invulnerable to influence. I don't know if "Lolita" could have been created
> > by someone who had not read Proust, and not just because of the allusions;
> > it's hard for me to read "Lolita" without sensing distant echoes of
> > Albertine, Gilberte, et al. The same goes for Nabokov's first novel, "Mary."
> > Indeed, "In Search of Lost Time" could serve as a title for "Lolita" had it
> > not already been taken. Aren't both novels testaments to the recreative and
> > inventive possibilities of memory?
> >
> > I don't think that there is a "Citizen Kane" connection with "Lolita,"
> > except in one rather obscure coincidental sense: the rose/vagina connection.
> > "Rosebud," as most fans of the Welles film know, was a bit of a dirty trick
> > on the part of screenwriter Herman Mankiewicz, since he had known Kane's
> > model, William Randolph Hearst, personally, and knew that "Rosebud" was his
> > pet name for the pudenda of his lover, the actress Marion Davies.
> >
> > Dolores Haze, too, is constantly connected with the image of a rose --
> > beautiful but temporary -- and Humbert refers to her pubis as her "brown
> > rose."
> >
> > This is not, however, an uncommon literary image, and I doubt one had much
> > to do with the other.
> >
> > Rodney Welch
> > Columbia, SC
> >
> > > From: Galya Diment <galya@u.washington.edu>
> > > Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:27:19 -0800
> > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Rosebud (fwd)
> > >
> > > From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
> > >
> > > I usually accept Nabokov's insistent denials of influence (Ignoring them
> > > has led to some rather dreadful errors in the past: Someone's - Her name
> > > escapes me - essay on Kafka comes to mind; Influence, as Appel
> > > acknowledges, is a troublesome question), and I agree that there is no
> > > reason to doubt his denial. However, I hadn't read the book since I
> > > couldn't find it at our library, and I presumed that it was no different
> > > from the essay. Still, as with Stravinsky, there are some interesting
> > > similarities.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Galya Diment wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Brian Walter <bdwalter@artsci.wustl.edu>
> > >>
> > >> Appel's essay "Nabokov's Dark Cinema" may not mention Welles, but his book
> > >> *Nabokov's Dark Cinema* (OUP, 1974) certainly does. Appel does in fact
> > >> verify that Nabokov loved *Citizen Kane*; apparently, Nabokov described it
> > >> as "Extraordinary! A masterpiece" (p. 57). Appel even asks Nabokov about
> > >> the famous "'Rosebud' ending," which Welles labeled "dollar-book Freud"; by
> > >> way of reply, Nabokov apparently "shrugged his shoulders, and the
> > >> conversation turned to soccer" (57-8).
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately for this line of inquiry, the same passage has Nabokov
> > >> rejecting any possibility of influence or allusion, as he informed Appel
> > >> that he had seen *Citizen Kane* only in 1972, on Swiss television (57).
> > >> It's probably a good idea to take any of Nabokov's insistent denials of
> > >> influence or allusion with a grain of salt (apart from Freud, few things
> > >> seem to have sparked Nabokov's competitive zeal more readily than a
> > >> suggestion that he was not self-engendered as a writer, one who effectively
> > >> skipped the gestation of apprenticeship and imitation that so many other
> > >> artists acknowledge; see, for instance, just about any interview in *Strong
> > >> Opinions*). But in this case, there seems no reason not to take Nabokov at
> > >> his word.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Galya Diment <galya@u.washington.edu>
> > >> To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:40 AM
> > >> Subject: Rosebud (fwd)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Kiran Krishna <kiran@Physics.usyd.edu.au>
> > >>
> > >> It just occured to me that in the following sentence (Part 1, Chapter 7,
> > >> Page 23 in the annotated edition):
> > >>
> > >> "Next day, an asthmatic woman, coarsely painted, garrulous, garlicky, with
> > >> an almost farcical Provencal accent and a black mustache above a purple
> > >> lip, took me to what was her own domicile, and there, after explosively
> > >> kissing the bunched tips of her fat fingers to signify the delectable
> > >> rosebud quality of her merchandise, she theatrically drew aside a curtain
> > >> to reveal what I judged was that part of the room where a large and
> > >> unfastidious family usually slept."
> > >>
> > >> Rosebud could be interpreted as a reference to Orson Welles' Citizen
> > >> Kane. Of course, allusions cannot really be discerned from single words,
> > >> but Welles, like a number of other great artists, has a fascination with
> > >> vulgarity (though in Citizen Kane, the vulgarity is closer to kitsch
> > >> than poshlost'). Ada (especially Dan Veen, the dream chapter - Part 2,
> > >> Chapter 3, and the dozen elderly townsmen of Part 1, Chapter 39, which
> > >> reminds me of the dozen vacationers in the west wing of Xanadu) suggests
> > >> Citizen Kane much more strongly. However, I find that Appel's essay (which
> > >> among other things is remarkable for its appreciation of Stravinsky's
> > >> Oedipus Rex), 'Nabokov's Dark Cinema' (collected, if you cannot find it by
> > >> itself, in 'The Bitter Air of Exile') makes no mention at all of Welles,
> > >> and neither, I notice, does Vladimir Nabokov: The American Years. Still, I
> > >> think it would be a fascinating area of research, and would be delighted
> > >> to hear other views on this subject.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > > yours
> > > Kiran
> > >
> > > "I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
> > > - Vladimir Nabokov
> > >
> > > http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
> > >
> > > http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy
> >
>
> Cheers!
> yours
> Kiran
>
> "I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
> -Vladimir Nabokov
>
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
>
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy
>
Cheers!
yours
Kiran
"I am an obscure, doubly obscure, novelist with an unpronounceable name."
-Vladimir Nabokov
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~kiran
http://www.physics.usyd.edu/hienergy