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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3518 Pale Fire
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 11:57 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3518
>
> pynchon-l-digest Saturday, August 30 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3518
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org
> > [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On Behalf Of s~Z
>
> > While no reference to Southey using Dear Stumparumper could
> > be found (Is stumparumper in Finnegans Wake?) I found 'dear
> > Grandmama' in a tale about a murder in a stable. The format
> > of the poem is like Kinbote's format for 'T H E H A U N T E
> > D B A R N' on p.190.
>
> Nice find -- I tip my imaginary hat. I've been thinking about the barn in
> connection to something Boyd pointed out: that the ghost lights Hazel sees
> in the barn are paralleled by the tunnel lights young Charles sees in his
> escape tunnel. If the barn lights are connected to Aunt Maud (as Boyd
> maintains), and the tunnel lights are connected to Oleg, then there may be
> an additional parallel between them: Oleg was Charles' first lover....
>
> There's no "stumparumper" in Joyce, at least according to this site, which
> claims to offer concordance text searches for all his work:
>
> http://www.grand-teton.com/cgi-bin/jjoyce/omnisearch.cgi
>
>
> >
> > >>>pg 81
> > "pale and diaphanous final phase": another echo of the title
> > which K admits "cannot be regarded as a direct echo of my
> > narrative".<<< http://www.eldritchdark.com/wri/short/white_sybil.html
> >
>
> Somehow I can't imagine VN picking up the latest issue of Weird Tales, but
I
> wonder if he was at all familiar with the stories of Smith or Lovecraft.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:02:02 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >
> > >>>pg 76
> > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > torso) maybe?<<<
> >
>
> But then there's this:
>
> "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly" (OED)
>
> ------------------------------
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
>
> > >
> > > >>>pg 76
> > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > >
> >
> > But then there's this:
> >
> > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly" (OED)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:22:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Comm2: Parents, part 2
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Don Corathers
>
> > One that practically leaps off the page is the story of
> > Alfin's death by crashing an airplane into a building. It's a
> > perfect reflection (excuse me) of the action described in the
> > first two lines of "Pale Fire," and we know that Kinbote read
> > the poem before he wrote about the death of Alfin. (Since
> > Kinbote didn't read "Pale Fire" until after the murder, this
> > particular item should probably go into a sub-pile:
> > embellishments of the Charles II story that Kinbote made
> > after Shade's death. We know that Kinbote told at least part
> > of Alfin's biography to Shade because he relates, with a
> > whiff of a sense of betrayal, that Shade retold in the
> > faculty lounge the story of Alfin losing an emperor.)
> >
> > Of course, if as some believe John Shade had a hand in
> > Kinbote's work, the account of Alfin's death resonates with
> > the poem in a different way.
> >
> > In either case, it is significant that within three pages we
> > are given a connection between John Shade's father and the
> > waxwing (Bombycilla shadei), and reminded of the bird's fatal
> > smack into the glass, and then shown Charles Kinbote's father
> > crashing an airplane into the scaffolding around a new hotel,
> > his fist raised in triumph.
> >
> > "that very last photograph (Christmas 1918)..." The
> > photograph would have been made only a few days before
> > Alfin's death. It contains yet another image of flight
> > ("little monoplane of chocolate") and also, oddly, the
> > likeness of the face that Kinbote/Charles, although he
> > describes the rest of the picture as if he is holding it in
> > his hand, is "unable to recall."
> >
>
> This is certainly one of those curious connections (one of the twists in
the
> mobius strip) between poem and commentary. If the inspiration for Alfin's
> death story is the opening of the poem (which seems valid), then Kinbote
> could not have related it to Shade prior to reading "Pale Fire."
Similarly
> Shade's inability to "evoke" his parents seems an inspiration for Alfin's
> cognomen "the Vague," but then how is it that Shade is able to relate the
> emperor story which derives from Alfin's absentmindedness? Since it seems
> reasonable to believe in Kinbote's disappointment at the poem's lack of
> Zemblan references (and thus that he did indeed relate those stories to
> Shade), the implication is that there are two sets of Zembla narratives:
one
> before Shade's death, and another after. If so, it demonstrates an effort
> on Kinbote's part to adapt his story to Shade's poem after finding out
that
> Shade did not adapt his poem to Kinbote's story.
>
> This passage is also a connection between two of the narrative piles (or
> columns?), where "a very special monoplane" (p 103) in the Zembla pile has
a
> similarity to "motor-powered model plane" in the New Wye section ending
> C.47-48 (p 93). Kinbote calls Alfin's monoplane his "bird of doom"
> (reminding me of the Butterfly of Doom), while the model plane causes him
to
> beg "Dear Jesus, do something."
>
> It also adds to the artificial vs natural contrast between Kinbote and
> Shade: Kinbote's mechanical bird vs. Shade's natural one.
>
> The index states that Alfin was "at one time" interested in "sea shells,"
> which makes me think of Conchologists on p 75.
>
> Kinbote ascribes vagueness to at least two other characters: "[Sylvia
> O'Donnell] had in common with Fleur de Fyler a vagueness of manner" (p
248).
>
>
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:33:53 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Comm2: Parents, part 2
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Don Corathers
>
> > Uranograd. For its remoteness, after the planet? Two choices
> > in Greek mythology (from www.theoi.com) : Urania (Ourania):
> > the Muse of astronomical writings. Uranus (Ouranos): the
> > ancient personification of the sky, which was thought to be a
> > solid dome of bronze. He was the first ruler of the universe
> > but was castrated and deposed by his son Cronus.
> >
>
> When Cronus castrated Uranus, the blood gave birth to nymphs and giants
(in
> one version anyway). Also, Uranus was both son and husband to Gaia.
>
> Urania is invoked by Milton in Book 7 of PL, and by Wordsworth in
> "Prospectus to The Recluse."
>
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> > Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >>>pg 76
> > > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > > >
> > >
> > > But then there's this:
> > >
> > > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly"
(OED)
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:55:08 -0500
> From: "MdShrk1" <mdshrk1@writeonill.org>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> This is after all, maybe Zoyd's cabin, "a run-down shack in Bigfoot
County."
> GD, "Brown-eyed Woman."
>
> Tim
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: "'Pynchon List'" <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 1:40 PM
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
>
> > Reminds me of that Grateful Dead lyric "jump like a Willys in four wheel
> > drive." A Stumpjumper is also apparently a mountain bike and an
airboat.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> > > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> > > Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>pg 76
> > > > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > But then there's this:
> > > >
> > > > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly"
> (OED)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3518
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 11:57 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3518
>
> pynchon-l-digest Saturday, August 30 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3518
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org
> > [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On Behalf Of s~Z
>
> > While no reference to Southey using Dear Stumparumper could
> > be found (Is stumparumper in Finnegans Wake?) I found 'dear
> > Grandmama' in a tale about a murder in a stable. The format
> > of the poem is like Kinbote's format for 'T H E H A U N T E
> > D B A R N' on p.190.
>
> Nice find -- I tip my imaginary hat. I've been thinking about the barn in
> connection to something Boyd pointed out: that the ghost lights Hazel sees
> in the barn are paralleled by the tunnel lights young Charles sees in his
> escape tunnel. If the barn lights are connected to Aunt Maud (as Boyd
> maintains), and the tunnel lights are connected to Oleg, then there may be
> an additional parallel between them: Oleg was Charles' first lover....
>
> There's no "stumparumper" in Joyce, at least according to this site, which
> claims to offer concordance text searches for all his work:
>
> http://www.grand-teton.com/cgi-bin/jjoyce/omnisearch.cgi
>
>
> >
> > >>>pg 81
> > "pale and diaphanous final phase": another echo of the title
> > which K admits "cannot be regarded as a direct echo of my
> > narrative".<<< http://www.eldritchdark.com/wri/short/white_sybil.html
> >
>
> Somehow I can't imagine VN picking up the latest issue of Weird Tales, but
I
> wonder if he was at all familiar with the stories of Smith or Lovecraft.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:02:02 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> >
> > >>>pg 76
> > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > torso) maybe?<<<
> >
>
> But then there's this:
>
> "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly" (OED)
>
> ------------------------------
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
>
> > >
> > > >>>pg 76
> > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > >
> >
> > But then there's this:
> >
> > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly" (OED)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:22:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Comm2: Parents, part 2
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Don Corathers
>
> > One that practically leaps off the page is the story of
> > Alfin's death by crashing an airplane into a building. It's a
> > perfect reflection (excuse me) of the action described in the
> > first two lines of "Pale Fire," and we know that Kinbote read
> > the poem before he wrote about the death of Alfin. (Since
> > Kinbote didn't read "Pale Fire" until after the murder, this
> > particular item should probably go into a sub-pile:
> > embellishments of the Charles II story that Kinbote made
> > after Shade's death. We know that Kinbote told at least part
> > of Alfin's biography to Shade because he relates, with a
> > whiff of a sense of betrayal, that Shade retold in the
> > faculty lounge the story of Alfin losing an emperor.)
> >
> > Of course, if as some believe John Shade had a hand in
> > Kinbote's work, the account of Alfin's death resonates with
> > the poem in a different way.
> >
> > In either case, it is significant that within three pages we
> > are given a connection between John Shade's father and the
> > waxwing (Bombycilla shadei), and reminded of the bird's fatal
> > smack into the glass, and then shown Charles Kinbote's father
> > crashing an airplane into the scaffolding around a new hotel,
> > his fist raised in triumph.
> >
> > "that very last photograph (Christmas 1918)..." The
> > photograph would have been made only a few days before
> > Alfin's death. It contains yet another image of flight
> > ("little monoplane of chocolate") and also, oddly, the
> > likeness of the face that Kinbote/Charles, although he
> > describes the rest of the picture as if he is holding it in
> > his hand, is "unable to recall."
> >
>
> This is certainly one of those curious connections (one of the twists in
the
> mobius strip) between poem and commentary. If the inspiration for Alfin's
> death story is the opening of the poem (which seems valid), then Kinbote
> could not have related it to Shade prior to reading "Pale Fire."
Similarly
> Shade's inability to "evoke" his parents seems an inspiration for Alfin's
> cognomen "the Vague," but then how is it that Shade is able to relate the
> emperor story which derives from Alfin's absentmindedness? Since it seems
> reasonable to believe in Kinbote's disappointment at the poem's lack of
> Zemblan references (and thus that he did indeed relate those stories to
> Shade), the implication is that there are two sets of Zembla narratives:
one
> before Shade's death, and another after. If so, it demonstrates an effort
> on Kinbote's part to adapt his story to Shade's poem after finding out
that
> Shade did not adapt his poem to Kinbote's story.
>
> This passage is also a connection between two of the narrative piles (or
> columns?), where "a very special monoplane" (p 103) in the Zembla pile has
a
> similarity to "motor-powered model plane" in the New Wye section ending
> C.47-48 (p 93). Kinbote calls Alfin's monoplane his "bird of doom"
> (reminding me of the Butterfly of Doom), while the model plane causes him
to
> beg "Dear Jesus, do something."
>
> It also adds to the artificial vs natural contrast between Kinbote and
> Shade: Kinbote's mechanical bird vs. Shade's natural one.
>
> The index states that Alfin was "at one time" interested in "sea shells,"
> which makes me think of Conchologists on p 75.
>
> Kinbote ascribes vagueness to at least two other characters: "[Sylvia
> O'Donnell] had in common with Fleur de Fyler a vagueness of manner" (p
248).
>
>
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:33:53 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF Comm2: Parents, part 2
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Don Corathers
>
> > Uranograd. For its remoteness, after the planet? Two choices
> > in Greek mythology (from www.theoi.com) : Urania (Ourania):
> > the Muse of astronomical writings. Uranus (Ouranos): the
> > ancient personification of the sky, which was thought to be a
> > solid dome of bronze. He was the first ruler of the universe
> > but was castrated and deposed by his son Cronus.
> >
>
> When Cronus castrated Uranus, the blood gave birth to nymphs and giants
(in
> one version anyway). Also, Uranus was both son and husband to Gaia.
>
> Urania is invoked by Milton in Book 7 of PL, and by Wordsworth in
> "Prospectus to The Recluse."
>
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> > Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >>>pg 76
> > > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > > >
> > >
> > > But then there's this:
> > >
> > > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly"
(OED)
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:55:08 -0500
> From: "MdShrk1" <mdshrk1@writeonill.org>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
> This is after all, maybe Zoyd's cabin, "a run-down shack in Bigfoot
County."
> GD, "Brown-eyed Woman."
>
> Tim
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: "'Pynchon List'" <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 1:40 PM
> Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
>
>
> > Reminds me of that Grateful Dead lyric "jump like a Willys in four wheel
> > drive." A Stumpjumper is also apparently a mountain bike and an
airboat.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> > > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:02 AM
> > > Subject: RE: NPPF Re: Notes C.1-4 - C.42
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>pg 76
> > > > > "Southey's Lingo-Grande ('Dear Stumparumper,' etc)": I have
> > > > > no idea other than Lingo-Grande == Great (or large) Language
> > > > > (or lick)? "Dear Stumparumper" sounds German, der StЭmper
> > > > > (blunderer) and der Rumpf (body,
> > > > > torso) maybe?<<<
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > But then there's this:
> > > >
> > > > "stump jumper: US colloq. a person from a rural area, a hillbilly"
> (OED)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3518
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.