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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3488 PALE Fire Canto 4
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 13 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3488
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> Actually, I'm really going to miss reading fq's posts
> about Pale Fire -- I love that feeling of
> anticipation, wondering if,, this time, finally, he's
> going to say something to the point, or at least get
> the inappropriate word spelled correctly, and each
> time she comes through with something laughable.
>
> As much as I'm going to miss fq's unintended comedy,
> I don't think it's right to let this
> non-Pynchon-related discussion continue to drive
> Pynchon readers away from Pynchon-L.
>
>
>
> fq:[...]
>
> > --- pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I'm just loving the way the Nabokov project is
> > > contributing to a better understanding of Pynchon
> > and
> > > the rest of that cross-fertilization razzmatazz
> > that
> > > was used to justify this vanity project for a few
> > > P-listers.
> > >
> > > Bait and switch, that's what it looks like to me.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, a Pynchon-reading friend has checked
> > into
> > > the P-list three times now recently, and each time
> > has
> > > chosen not to subscribe, puzzled by the huge
> > chunks of
> > > stuff about Nabokov containing nothing about
> > Pynchon.
> > >
> > > The Pale Fire discussion should move to another
> > venue, imo.
> > >
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> fq:
> >I will not go offlist with
> > this.
>
> If fq makes it a solo act, I enourage this discussion
> to continue on Pynchon-L. Newscomers to the P-list
> will just think they've stumbled on to some parody of
> literary discourse.
>
>
> >
> > --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there
> > are only a very few of us
> > > participating in NPPF, would those participating
> > like to take it offlist? We
> > > can create our own list in our address books and
> > have the discussion amongst
> > > ourselves. I would prefer that.
> > >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:35:52 GMT
> From: "himself" <himself@richardryan.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> I'm quite enjoying the Pale Fire dicussion, and though I haven't
> participated much, I'm sure that many lurkers and semi-lurkers are
enjoying
> it as well.
>
> By all means, PF-ing P-Listers, post on!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> Behalf Of David Morris
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:21 AM
> To: s~Z; pynchon-l@waste.org
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
>
>
> There is no reason to do so. There has been no problem. And there are
> more than just a few of us. I will not go offlist with this.
>
> --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few
> > of us participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
>
> > offlist? We can create our own list in our address books and have the
> > discussion amongst ourselves. I would prefer that.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:50:40 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pynchonoid" <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:55 PM
> Subject: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
> >
> > As much as I'm going to miss fq's unintended comedy,
> > I don't think it's right to let this
> > non-Pynchon-related discussion continue to drive
> > Pynchon readers away from Pynchon-L.
> >
>
> C'mon Doug, show your friend where the delete-button is and encourage him
to
> subscribe.
>
> Pale Fire is a wonderful book and the only thing I don't like about the
> current situation is that we're doing two books at a time.
>
> Otto
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:17:36 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: NPPF (Commentary) vino-gardener
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> > Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) garden Aves
> >
> > garden Aves?
>
> Birds - http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdintro.html
>
> > The poem ends with gardener, and the Commentary refers to him almost
> > immediately.
>
>
> The gardener has linguistic links to Gradus. See Note to 17 (p. 77) "he
> contended the real origin of the name should be sought in the Russian word
> for grape, /vinograd/, to which a Latin suffix had adhered, making it
> Vinogradus."
>
> There's very much an East->West movement to the etymology of this word
that
> becomes "vineyard", stapled by Kinbote to a Russian origin. The word
"yard"
> is believed to derive from the Proto-Indo-European "gharto-", the
> Proto-Germanic "garda", and the Old English "geard" (enclosure, garden,
> court, house, yard), while "vine" is from the Latin "vinea" through the
Old
> French "vigne". "Vineyard" is from the Old English "wingeard".
>
> It is also found in the Scandinavian/Icelandic garПr (that's a crossed d,
or
> "eth", equivalent to an English "th") meaning a fenced or walled
enclosure,
> a house, or a castle; together with "vin", a vin-garПr is a grape
enclosure.
> The plural is "garПar" meaning "Russia" due to numerous Viking strongholds
> there, linking Russia to the Vikings.
>
> In his _Eugene Onegin_ translation, VN connects "gorod" to "garП":
> "Novgorod, ancient Holmgard, was founded by the Vikings at the grey dawn
of
> our era." Sailors from the city of Novgorod (New Town), north of St.
> Petersburg, found Novaya Zemlya in the 11th or 12th century, and Kinbote
> says in his note to line 681 that Charles derives from two "Novgorod
> princesses."
>
> The Anglo-Saxon "graПa" means "a step" or "degree", evolving into
gradual --
> Gradus again.
>
> The East->West movement is made by both Gradus and Kinbote (as well as
> Nabokov). The Icelandic stop between Russia/Zembla and America/Vineland
> hints at the journey of the Vikings to Vineland. Gradus arrives in
Vineland
> and is knocked unconscious by a garПr: he flies right into a mirror.
>
> I'm not sure what all to make of the Gray->Black (or Black->Gray) impact
> between the "Negro gardener" and Gradus, other than black is associated in
> PF with death and endings, one end of two poles that turn up a lot in the
> novel, and so it's fitting that the poem ends with the gardener. Or
almost
> ends there -- note that the last line has him going past, "Trundling an
> empty barrow up the lane", therefore going on *beyond* that ending (into
the
> sunset as it were), and the Commentary too *almost* ends with a scene
> involving the gardener.
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/y1etym.htm
> http://www.etymonline.com/v2etym.htm
>
> Jasper Fidget
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:45:11 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> >
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few of
> > us
> > participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
offlist?
> > We
> > can create our own list in our address books and have the discussion
> > amongst
> > ourselves. I would prefer that.
>
>
> I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L. There are so many great
> books that are worth a discussion in this format by ambitious readers, why
> keep reading the same ones over and over?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:43:43 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
>
> > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> somewhere
> > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
the
> end
> > > of the poem.
> >
> >
> >
> > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense alive.
> > I think that much is expected of us.
> >
>
> This is what Boyd suggests too.
>
> > >
> > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be murdered
> this
> > > evening.
> >
>
> Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book I'm
> wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is being
> "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
contrast
> between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality" of
> the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
>
> Otto
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:52:31 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF (Commentary) Stillicide: Playlist Addition
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> >
> > http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/ataylor/archiv/type/inky/inky12.htm
>
> I like their guessed definition: 'death by non-motion'. I've been trying
to
> commit stillicide for years (much more difficult than its active
> counterpart). It could also mean 'death to stillness' -- any activity
might
> be a stillicide. Or the decision to become active, an attempted
stillicide.
>
> Blah blah
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
>
> > I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L.
> > There are so many great
> > books that are worth a discussion in this format by
> > ambitious readers, why
> > keep reading the same ones over and over?
> >
>
> Until quite recently, Pynchon-L's focus has been on
> Pynchon, his works, criticism of his works, and other
> Pynchon-related topics.
>
> There are also Internet groups dedicated to just about
> every author imaginable. If there's not one focused
> on the author you want to read, it takes 5 minutes or
> so to set up a discussion list at Yahoo Groups.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:08:09 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
> Anyone hip to the shades in Dante's Inferno? These are the souls of
> suicides........It will take me much to long to get to that passage at the
> rate I'm working.....
>
> love,
> cfa
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:21 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Otto
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> > somewhere
> > > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
> > the
> > end
> > > > of the poem.
> > >
> > > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense
alive.
> > > I think that much is expected of us.
> > >
> >
> > This is what Boyd suggests too.
> >
> > > >
> > > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be
murdered
> > this
> > > > evening.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book
I'm
> > wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is
being
> > "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
> > contrast
> > between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality"
of
> > the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
> >
> > Otto
>
> It's interesting that we've shifted from a focus on Hazel's death to a
focus
> (in absentia granted) on Shade's death. Surely the two are connected, and
> the strongest link is the butterfly.
>
> Boyd has the Dark Vanessa, which is linked to Sybil (see ln 270), as
Hazel's
> spirit warning Shade of his impending death. Before reading his _Magic of
> Artistic Discovery_, my belief was that it was a simple correlation
between
> the Butterfly of Doom warning of death and Sybil warning of Kinbote, but
> Boyd takes it much further. Let's see if I can avoid screwing this up (he
> does a great dissection in the book, too long to quote):
>
> In lines 316-319 we have the reversed Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale
> where Hazel doesn't transform into the wood duck (rather than the swan,
> remember?), and is linked to the Toothwort White, a morose, dingy
butterfly
> often mistaken for others. She *ought* to have transformed, given the way
> the fairy tale goes, into the kind of beauty connected with her mother,
the
> Vanessa Atalanta, the "exuberant" "magnificent" Red Admirable. So it is
> only after death that she *is* transformed. The important scene in the
> Haunted Barn plays into this, and I'll point it out when we get there.
Note
> that Hazel enters the poem in Canto 2 for the first time as a ghost (ln
> 290), and is only referred to earlier in connection with the "phantom" of
> Shade's daughter's swing.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:24:10 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of pynchonoid
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L.
> > > There are so many great
> > > books that are worth a discussion in this format by
> > > ambitious readers, why
> > > keep reading the same ones over and over?
> > >
> >
> > Until quite recently, Pynchon-L's focus has been on
> > Pynchon, his works, criticism of his works, and other
> > Pynchon-related topics.
> >
> > There are also Internet groups dedicated to just about
> > every author imaginable. If there's not one focused
> > on the author you want to read, it takes 5 minutes or
> > so to set up a discussion list at Yahoo Groups.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah but they mostly suck. This group on Pynchon-L is by far the most
> entertaining, active, and ambitious that I'm aware of.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 13 Aug 2003 14:40:09 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 13:43, Otto wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> > somewhere
> > > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
the
> > end
> > > > of the poem.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense
alive.
> > > I think that much is expected of us.
> > >
> >
> > This is what Boyd suggests too.
>
>
> Yes. I'm trying to do a "Boyd" without any resort to the Commentary.
> (next week we can start discussing K's contribution)
>
> There's a lot that can be gotten from the poem standing alone. The
> strong suggestion in Canto Two that the dull retiring Toothwort White is
> Hazel in her earthly state and at the end of Canto Four the gorgeous
> Venessa is she in the Afterlife.
>
>
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be
murdered
> > this
> > > > evening.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book
I'm
> > wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is
being
> > "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
contrast
> > between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality"
of
> > the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
>
>
> Well, as I said in a post yesterday I don't think the irony is terribly
> important. Yes, it's ironic to have stated one's hope for a daughter's
> continuing existence in terms of the "sure thing" probability of seeing
> the next sunrise only to die violently a few minutes later. But what S
> is interested in is seeing Hazel again--the state he himself is in would
> be quite a secondary consideration.
>
>
>
> P.
>
> > Otto
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3488
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, August 13 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3488
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> Actually, I'm really going to miss reading fq's posts
> about Pale Fire -- I love that feeling of
> anticipation, wondering if,, this time, finally, he's
> going to say something to the point, or at least get
> the inappropriate word spelled correctly, and each
> time she comes through with something laughable.
>
> As much as I'm going to miss fq's unintended comedy,
> I don't think it's right to let this
> non-Pynchon-related discussion continue to drive
> Pynchon readers away from Pynchon-L.
>
>
>
> fq:[...]
>
> > --- pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I'm just loving the way the Nabokov project is
> > > contributing to a better understanding of Pynchon
> > and
> > > the rest of that cross-fertilization razzmatazz
> > that
> > > was used to justify this vanity project for a few
> > > P-listers.
> > >
> > > Bait and switch, that's what it looks like to me.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, a Pynchon-reading friend has checked
> > into
> > > the P-list three times now recently, and each time
> > has
> > > chosen not to subscribe, puzzled by the huge
> > chunks of
> > > stuff about Nabokov containing nothing about
> > Pynchon.
> > >
> > > The Pale Fire discussion should move to another
> > venue, imo.
> > >
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> fq:
> >I will not go offlist with
> > this.
>
> If fq makes it a solo act, I enourage this discussion
> to continue on Pynchon-L. Newscomers to the P-list
> will just think they've stumbled on to some parody of
> literary discourse.
>
>
> >
> > --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there
> > are only a very few of us
> > > participating in NPPF, would those participating
> > like to take it offlist? We
> > > can create our own list in our address books and
> > have the discussion amongst
> > > ourselves. I would prefer that.
> > >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:35:52 GMT
> From: "himself" <himself@richardryan.com>
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> I'm quite enjoying the Pale Fire dicussion, and though I haven't
> participated much, I'm sure that many lurkers and semi-lurkers are
enjoying
> it as well.
>
> By all means, PF-ing P-Listers, post on!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> Behalf Of David Morris
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 9:21 AM
> To: s~Z; pynchon-l@waste.org
> Subject: Re: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
>
>
> There is no reason to do so. There has been no problem. And there are
> more than just a few of us. I will not go offlist with this.
>
> --- s~Z <keithsz@concentric.net> wrote:
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few
> > of us participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
>
> > offlist? We can create our own list in our address books and have the
> > discussion amongst ourselves. I would prefer that.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:50:40 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pynchonoid" <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 5:55 PM
> Subject: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
> >
> > As much as I'm going to miss fq's unintended comedy,
> > I don't think it's right to let this
> > non-Pynchon-related discussion continue to drive
> > Pynchon readers away from Pynchon-L.
> >
>
> C'mon Doug, show your friend where the delete-button is and encourage him
to
> subscribe.
>
> Pale Fire is a wonderful book and the only thing I don't like about the
> current situation is that we're doing two books at a time.
>
> Otto
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:17:36 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: NPPF (Commentary) vino-gardener
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> > Subject: Re: NPPF (Commentary) garden Aves
> >
> > garden Aves?
>
> Birds - http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdintro.html
>
> > The poem ends with gardener, and the Commentary refers to him almost
> > immediately.
>
>
> The gardener has linguistic links to Gradus. See Note to 17 (p. 77) "he
> contended the real origin of the name should be sought in the Russian word
> for grape, /vinograd/, to which a Latin suffix had adhered, making it
> Vinogradus."
>
> There's very much an East->West movement to the etymology of this word
that
> becomes "vineyard", stapled by Kinbote to a Russian origin. The word
"yard"
> is believed to derive from the Proto-Indo-European "gharto-", the
> Proto-Germanic "garda", and the Old English "geard" (enclosure, garden,
> court, house, yard), while "vine" is from the Latin "vinea" through the
Old
> French "vigne". "Vineyard" is from the Old English "wingeard".
>
> It is also found in the Scandinavian/Icelandic garПr (that's a crossed d,
or
> "eth", equivalent to an English "th") meaning a fenced or walled
enclosure,
> a house, or a castle; together with "vin", a vin-garПr is a grape
enclosure.
> The plural is "garПar" meaning "Russia" due to numerous Viking strongholds
> there, linking Russia to the Vikings.
>
> In his _Eugene Onegin_ translation, VN connects "gorod" to "garП":
> "Novgorod, ancient Holmgard, was founded by the Vikings at the grey dawn
of
> our era." Sailors from the city of Novgorod (New Town), north of St.
> Petersburg, found Novaya Zemlya in the 11th or 12th century, and Kinbote
> says in his note to line 681 that Charles derives from two "Novgorod
> princesses."
>
> The Anglo-Saxon "graПa" means "a step" or "degree", evolving into
gradual --
> Gradus again.
>
> The East->West movement is made by both Gradus and Kinbote (as well as
> Nabokov). The Icelandic stop between Russia/Zembla and America/Vineland
> hints at the journey of the Vikings to Vineland. Gradus arrives in
Vineland
> and is knocked unconscious by a garПr: he flies right into a mirror.
>
> I'm not sure what all to make of the Gray->Black (or Black->Gray) impact
> between the "Negro gardener" and Gradus, other than black is associated in
> PF with death and endings, one end of two poles that turn up a lot in the
> novel, and so it's fitting that the poem ends with the gardener. Or
almost
> ends there -- note that the last line has him going past, "Trundling an
> empty barrow up the lane", therefore going on *beyond* that ending (into
the
> sunset as it were), and the Commentary too *almost* ends with a scene
> involving the gardener.
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/y1etym.htm
> http://www.etymonline.com/v2etym.htm
>
> Jasper Fidget
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:45:11 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> >
> > I agree with slothenvypride and Doug. Since there are only a very few of
> > us
> > participating in NPPF, would those participating like to take it
offlist?
> > We
> > can create our own list in our address books and have the discussion
> > amongst
> > ourselves. I would prefer that.
>
>
> I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L. There are so many great
> books that are worth a discussion in this format by ambitious readers, why
> keep reading the same ones over and over?
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:43:43 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
>
> > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> somewhere
> > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
the
> end
> > > of the poem.
> >
> >
> >
> > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense alive.
> > I think that much is expected of us.
> >
>
> This is what Boyd suggests too.
>
> > >
> > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be murdered
> this
> > > evening.
> >
>
> Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book I'm
> wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is being
> "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
contrast
> between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality" of
> the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
>
> Otto
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:52:31 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF (Commentary) Stillicide: Playlist Addition
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of s~Z
> >
> > http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/ataylor/archiv/type/inky/inky12.htm
>
> I like their guessed definition: 'death by non-motion'. I've been trying
to
> commit stillicide for years (much more difficult than its active
> counterpart). It could also mean 'death to stillness' -- any activity
might
> be a stillicide. Or the decision to become active, an attempted
stillicide.
>
> Blah blah
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
>
> > I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L.
> > There are so many great
> > books that are worth a discussion in this format by
> > ambitious readers, why
> > keep reading the same ones over and over?
> >
>
> Until quite recently, Pynchon-L's focus has been on
> Pynchon, his works, criticism of his works, and other
> Pynchon-related topics.
>
> There are also Internet groups dedicated to just about
> every author imaginable. If there's not one focused
> on the author you want to read, it takes 5 minutes or
> so to set up a discussion list at Yahoo Groups.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
>>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:08:09 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
> Anyone hip to the shades in Dante's Inferno? These are the souls of
> suicides........It will take me much to long to get to that passage at the
> rate I'm working.....
>
> love,
> cfa
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:21 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Otto
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> > somewhere
> > > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
> > the
> > end
> > > > of the poem.
> > >
> > > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense
alive.
> > > I think that much is expected of us.
> > >
> >
> > This is what Boyd suggests too.
> >
> > > >
> > > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be
murdered
> > this
> > > > evening.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book
I'm
> > wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is
being
> > "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
> > contrast
> > between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality"
of
> > the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
> >
> > Otto
>
> It's interesting that we've shifted from a focus on Hazel's death to a
focus
> (in absentia granted) on Shade's death. Surely the two are connected, and
> the strongest link is the butterfly.
>
> Boyd has the Dark Vanessa, which is linked to Sybil (see ln 270), as
Hazel's
> spirit warning Shade of his impending death. Before reading his _Magic of
> Artistic Discovery_, my belief was that it was a simple correlation
between
> the Butterfly of Doom warning of death and Sybil warning of Kinbote, but
> Boyd takes it much further. Let's see if I can avoid screwing this up (he
> does a great dissection in the book, too long to quote):
>
> In lines 316-319 we have the reversed Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale
> where Hazel doesn't transform into the wood duck (rather than the swan,
> remember?), and is linked to the Toothwort White, a morose, dingy
butterfly
> often mistaken for others. She *ought* to have transformed, given the way
> the fairy tale goes, into the kind of beauty connected with her mother,
the
> Vanessa Atalanta, the "exuberant" "magnificent" Red Admirable. So it is
> only after death that she *is* transformed. The important scene in the
> Haunted Barn plays into this, and I'll point it out when we get there.
Note
> that Hazel enters the poem in Canto 2 for the first time as a ghost (ln
> 290), and is only referred to earlier in connection with the "phantom" of
> Shade's daughter's swing.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:24:10 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: Taking Pale Fire Elsewhere
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of pynchonoid
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I kind of liked Quail's idea of a Not-Pynchon-L.
> > > There are so many great
> > > books that are worth a discussion in this format by
> > > ambitious readers, why
> > > keep reading the same ones over and over?
> > >
> >
> > Until quite recently, Pynchon-L's focus has been on
> > Pynchon, his works, criticism of his works, and other
> > Pynchon-related topics.
> >
> > There are also Internet groups dedicated to just about
> > every author imaginable. If there's not one focused
> > on the author you want to read, it takes 5 minutes or
> > so to set up a discussion list at Yahoo Groups.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah but they mostly suck. This group on Pynchon-L is by far the most
> entertaining, active, and ambitious that I'm aware of.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 13 Aug 2003 14:40:09 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 13:43, Otto wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 18:04, The Great Quail wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 977-978: "I'm reasonably sure that we survive/And that my darling
> > somewhere
> > > > is alive" -- Obviously meaning Hazel; a rather powerful admission at
the
> > end
> > > > of the poem.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The language of the poet seems particularly powerful and elegant in
> > > these closing lines. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that, in the
> > > over all scheme of the novel, John Shade's poem is completely and
> > > totally irrelevant, I have to believe that Hazel is in some sense
alive.
> > > I think that much is expected of us.
> > >
> >
> > This is what Boyd suggests too.
>
>
> Yes. I'm trying to do a "Boyd" without any resort to the Commentary.
> (next week we can start discussing K's contribution)
>
> There's a lot that can be gotten from the poem standing alone. The
> strong suggestion in Canto Two that the dull retiring Toothwort White is
> Hazel in her earthly state and at the end of Canto Four the gorgeous
> Venessa is she in the Afterlife.
>
>
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > 979-982: The irony of these lines is sharp, as Shade will be
murdered
> > this
> > > > evening.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, and since I've read it the first time, and then read Boyd's book
I'm
> > wondering what to make of this sharp irony. Isn't it as if Shade is
being
> > "punished" for the hybris of writing those lines? Isn't this sharp
contrast
> > between Shade being sure to wake up the next morning and the "reality"
of
> > the novel (being shot) mocking his belief of an afterlife?
>
>
> Well, as I said in a post yesterday I don't think the irony is terribly
> important. Yes, it's ironic to have stated one's hope for a daughter's
> continuing existence in terms of the "sure thing" probability of seeing
> the next sunrise only to die violently a few minutes later. But what S
> is interested in is seeing Hazel again--the state he himself is in would
> be quite a secondary consideration.
>
>
>
> P.
>
> > Otto
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3488
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