Subject
"Pale Fire" or PALE FIRE? Order of Battle
From
Date
Body
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Boyd (FOA ENG)" <b.boyd@auckland.ac.nz>
.
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (215
lines) ------------------
> Dear Don and List,
>
> Yes, Boyd does supply the answer. See Index, Nabokov/Works/Pale
> Fire/composition, 416-24 of Vladimir Nabokov. The American Years.
>
> See p. 417: poem first.
>
> VN called Shade "certainly the greatest of invented poets." That doesn't
> sound like merely "good." And he called the poem the hardest thing he ever
> had to write.
>
> I note again that Helen Vendler, who's one of the best readers of English
> poetry alive, rates "PF" highly. Interestingly, she has written one of the
> best books on Shakespeare's sonnets, and the sonnets (though she doesn't
> make the connection) are the only place I know of in English poetry
outside
> "PF" where there is quite that degree of tight virtuosic combinational
> magic. Given the role of Shakespeare in supplying titles, trees and street
> lighting, this may be more than coincidence.
>
> But I don't see any great similarity to Frost.
>
> Brian Boyd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D. Barton Johnson [mailto:chtodel@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:02 AM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
>
>
> EDNOTE. GK prompts me to wonder somehing I should (but don't) know. Boyd
may
> supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
> "Commentary"?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
> >
> > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
> lines) ------------------
> > The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that the
> > poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
> insistence
> > that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the context
> of
> > the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> > reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact
that
> > the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but expressing
a
> > sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things as
> > jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> > quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I
think
> it
> > is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality
(i.e.,
> > the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
> Hazel's
> > journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
> on....
> >
> > GK
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > > lines) ------------------
> > > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of
others
> > > about
> > > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of
genius,
> > > do
> > > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw, and
as
> > > I've
> > > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances or
> > > aspects
> > > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me,
that
> > > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > > poems).
> > > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > > NABOKV-L
> > > > >list at
> > > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
list,
> > > using
> > > > >a
> > > > >mail
> > > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
> support
> > > or
> > > > >consult
> > > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will be
> > > > >distributed and
> > > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > > automatically.
> > > If
> > > > >on the
> > > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a
digest,
> > > you
> > > > >will
> > > > >have
> > > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be able
> to
> > > > >contact the
> > > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply" function
> of
> > > > >your
> > > > >mail
> > > > > > program.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > > "swayed"
> > > by
> > > > >our
> > > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything for
> > > that
> > > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
> Sapere
> > > > >aude
> > > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and
more
> > > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > > demonstration
> > > > >of
> > > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of Shade's
> > > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > > Kinbote's
> > > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail. Basically
> > > what
> > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was a
> work
> > > of
> > > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells me
it
> > > was
> > > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best poetry
> > > Nabokov
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most
trouble
> > > he's
> > > > >ever
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging poetry
> > > (almost
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
> verse?)
> > > can
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as
somewhat
> > > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times before.
> > > This
> > > is
> > > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he writes
> very
> > > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be
swayed
> > > with
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > > >
> > >
From: "Brian Boyd (FOA ENG)" <b.boyd@auckland.ac.nz>
.
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (215
lines) ------------------
> Dear Don and List,
>
> Yes, Boyd does supply the answer. See Index, Nabokov/Works/Pale
> Fire/composition, 416-24 of Vladimir Nabokov. The American Years.
>
> See p. 417: poem first.
>
> VN called Shade "certainly the greatest of invented poets." That doesn't
> sound like merely "good." And he called the poem the hardest thing he ever
> had to write.
>
> I note again that Helen Vendler, who's one of the best readers of English
> poetry alive, rates "PF" highly. Interestingly, she has written one of the
> best books on Shakespeare's sonnets, and the sonnets (though she doesn't
> make the connection) are the only place I know of in English poetry
outside
> "PF" where there is quite that degree of tight virtuosic combinational
> magic. Given the role of Shakespeare in supplying titles, trees and street
> lighting, this may be more than coincidence.
>
> But I don't see any great similarity to Frost.
>
> Brian Boyd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D. Barton Johnson [mailto:chtodel@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:02 AM
> To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
>
>
> EDNOTE. GK prompts me to wonder somehing I should (but don't) know. Boyd
may
> supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
> "Commentary"?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
> >
> > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
> lines) ------------------
> > The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that the
> > poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
> insistence
> > that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the context
> of
> > the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> > reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact
that
> > the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but expressing
a
> > sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things as
> > jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> > quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I
think
> it
> > is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality
(i.e.,
> > the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
> Hazel's
> > journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
> on....
> >
> > GK
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > > lines) ------------------
> > > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of
others
> > > about
> > > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of
genius,
> > > do
> > > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw, and
as
> > > I've
> > > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances or
> > > aspects
> > > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me,
that
> > > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > > poems).
> > > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > > NABOKV-L
> > > > >list at
> > > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
list,
> > > using
> > > > >a
> > > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
> support
> > > or
> > > > >consult
> > > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will be
> > > > >distributed and
> > > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > > automatically.
> > > If
> > > > >on the
> > > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a
digest,
> > > you
> > > > >will
> > > > >have
> > > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be able
> to
> > > > >contact the
> > > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply" function
> of
> > > > >your
> > > > > > program.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > > "swayed"
> > > by
> > > > >our
> > > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything for
> > > that
> > > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
> Sapere
> > > > >aude
> > > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and
more
> > > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > > demonstration
> > > > >of
> > > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of Shade's
> > > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > > Kinbote's
> > > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail. Basically
> > > what
> > > > >I'm
> > > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was a
> work
> > > of
> > > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells me
it
> > > was
> > > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best poetry
> > > Nabokov
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most
trouble
> > > he's
> > > > >ever
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging poetry
> > > (almost
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
> verse?)
> > > can
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as
somewhat
> > > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times before.
> > > This
> > > is
> > > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he writes
> very
> > > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be
swayed
> > > with
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > > >
> > >