Subject
Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3417 PALE FIRE
From
Date
Body
>
> ------------------------------
.> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:38:04 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> > From: Elainemmbell@aol.com [mailto:Elainemmbell@aol.com]
> >
> > In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > jasper@hatguild.org writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
> > (Taxaceae). T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's native
> > to (you guessed it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of
> > Northeastern U.S. (mainly Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
> >
> > lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New
Wye/To
> > Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
> >
> > So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather
blatantly
> > puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance
because
> > of yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
> > Although research was already well advanced regarding yew's
pharmaceutical
> > wonders in the early 60's, it's probably not that research that N would
> > have been aware of so much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of
killing
> > or saving life, depending on how it was used.
> >
> > at all yewsful?
> >
> > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > (860) 523-9225
>
>
> And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
>
> The silent sister veiled in white and blue
> Between the yews, behind the garden god,
> Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke no word
>
> But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
> Redeem the time, redeem the dream
> The token of the word unheard, unspoken
>
> Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew
>
> And after this our exile
>
> http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/~gjm11/poems/ashwed.html
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:42:37 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Toby G Levy
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:08 PM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
> >
> > A couple of minor disagreements:
> >
> > Page 20
> > "his abundant gray hair looked berimed in the sun"
> >
> > Jasper said it is an alternate spelling of "berhymed" but I say it is a
> > verbification of rime as in ice coating. Shade is outside in the cold
> > and his beard appeared to covered with ice.
> >
> > Page 22
> > "Parthenocissus Hall"
> >
> > Parthenocissus is a grape vine, and as as such VN is either trying to
> > give an image as a place where wine is drunk, where rumors are exchanged
> > or an vine covered building...or all three?
> >
> > Toby
>
>
> The OED has "berhyme" and "berime" as alternates, and doesn't have
"berime"
> as a verb form of "rime", but I'll grant that "rimed" makes more sense in
> the context.
>
> I missed this definition of Parthenocissus, I think because the potential
> transposition jumped out right away -- good catch.
>
>
http://www.bluebellnursery.com/cgi-bin/catalogue.cgi?cat=c&genus=Parthenocis
> sus
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:51:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
characters
> > are
> > practically begging to be read that way.)
> >
> > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated that
> > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > Charles
> > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
> > fron a
> > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> >
> > David Morris
> >
>
> Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade we
know
> from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
Certainly
> for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even got
> the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and refers
> often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail and
> escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
pederasty),
> it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no indication
of
> homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I suppose
> Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's adamant
> insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
>
> I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
meet
> with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye. For
> instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald apparently
> resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of the
> gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying on
> Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
Field's
> idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody gets
> hurt...?
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:05 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> On
> > Behalf Of jbor
> >
> >
> > But there are errors and incongruities in Kinbote's writing, such as the
> > "your favorite" in the second paragraph of the Foreword, which is
> > grammatically and cohesively inconsistent with the rest of that
paragraph.
> > Nabokov has had Kinbote write deliberately in this manner, and it's not
> > the
> > way Nabokov would write a Foreword to a critical edition of, say _Eugene
> > Onegin_. Sure, there are flashes of inspired writing, but Kinbote is
also
> > pathologically verbose and he is unable to control the tone of his
> > writing,
> > and much of what he does write, and the way he it is written, is
> > inappropriate to the context in which he is writing, and these are
> > stylistic
> > flaws which Nabokov has consciously endowed him with as an aspect of the
> > characterisation.
> >
> > It's worth following the hypothesis through.
> >
> > best
>
> The "your favorite" incongruity seems rather more blatant than a
"stylistic
> flaw"; I think when something stands out as obviously as this does, it has
> to be a clue to something. Certainly it's an aside from one person to
> another, whether that first person is Kinbote or otherwise.
>
> akaJasper
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:35:09 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: VLVL2 and NPPF: Missed Communication
>
> > From: Tim Strzechowski [mailto:dedalus204@comcast.net]
> >
> > > If missed communication can be taken as Zoyd's disconnectedness with
the
> > > world around him, then Kinbote becomes an easy parallel. My sense of
> > > chapter one of VL (and I haven't read it in over a decade, so this one
> > > chapter I read yesterday feels fairly new to me), is of a sort of Rip
> > van
> > > Winkle waking up to a world that has changed while he slept, but not
> > > realizing it right away (not getting the message).
> > >
> > > Similarly, one approach to PF is to view Kinbote (as the alias of
> > Russian
> > > scholar V. Botkin) as one who feels dispossessed by his homeland, left
> > in
> > > the past as it were by the new Soviet system to which he doesn't find
> > any
> > > connection, and Zembla is the homeland he creates to replace it.
> > Neither
> > > character is living in the world as it is in the present.
> > >
> >
> > Excellent comparison between the two characters. Curiously, it's made
all
> > the more compelling because one work is told in 3rd person and the other
> > in
> > 1st person, no? I wonder how the narrative voice impacts the ways in
> > which
> > we, as readers, perceive the missed communications?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Doesn't the question of authorial authority enter into this? Don't we
find
> a 3rd person narrative more authoritative than that of 1st person?
Perhaps
> we are conditioned to suspect the 1st person voice, reduce it immediately
to
> opinion and limited perspective, while the 3rd person voice has that
> compelling pretension to omniscience. Does this trust in a 3rd person
voice
> imply our susceptibility to control by others? If so, with a missed
> communication, I think in a 3rd person narrative we are less suspicious of
> the *origin* of the message. When told by the god-narrator that it
exists,
> then we assume that yes, it must exist. If Pynchon is concerned with
> methods of control, then why assume in his narrative voice one such
method?
> Or does he work consciously to undermine that voice?
>
> A parallel way in which an authoritative voice speaks in VL is through the
> media: for the most part, it's a third person narrative, and for the most
> part, its audience doesn't question its authority. The media must comment
> on the world for people stuck to couches, and some of those same people
feel
> compelled to be commented on. Are the media so different from literary
> critics like Kinbote, predatorily finding a subject to fix upon at a cost
> unknown and perhaps irrelevant to them? And isn't being in the first
> edition of John Shade's "Pale Fire" something like being featured on "Good
> Morning America"?
>
> akaJasper
>
> ------------------------------
> In a message dated 7/16/2003 9:38:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jasper@hatguild.org writes:
>
> > And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
> >
>
> Nice! Thanks Jasper...
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 10:53:43 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 09:51, Jasper Fidget wrote:
> > > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
characters
> > > are
> > > practically begging to be read that way.)
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
that
> > > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > > Charles
> > > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness
stemming
> > > fron a
> > > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> >
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade we
know
> > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
Certainly
> > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
got
> > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
refers
> > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
and
> > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
pederasty),
> > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
indication of
> > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I suppose
> > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's adamant
> > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> >
> > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
meet
> > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye. For
> > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald apparently
> > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
the
> > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying on
> > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
Field's
> > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
gets
> > hurt...?
> >
> > ajaKasper
> >
>
>
> Fleur must be hurt or at least discouraged by her lack of success in
> seducing young Charles. And Disa who's truly got it bad for her husband
> suffers greatly from his rebuffs. Females suffer in predominantly
> homosexual Zembla at least in some part like Hazel suffers in New Wye..
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:58:33 -0400
> From: The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Jasper writes,
>
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> > that is exactly),
>
> I can see that, certainly. One thing that strikes me about Zembla is how
> open and acceptable homosexuality is, particularly among the ruling
classes.
> There is almost an expectation that young Zemblan men will dally with one
> another, not to mention page boys and the like. This is especially
powerful
> given the time the book was written and takes place -- America in the
1950s.
>
> It's actually one of the aspects of Kinbote's story that humanizes him for
> me. Even though he treats women contemptuously, there's something moving
in
> his need to create a land where his own sexuality is normal. Though I
> certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities with a certain
> degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
>
> - --Quail
>
> ------------------------------
>> Date: 16 Jul 2003 11:03:39 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 09:38, Jasper Fidget wrote:
> > > From: Elainemmbell@aol.com [mailto:Elainemmbell@aol.com]
> > >
> > > In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > jasper@hatguild.org writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
> > > (Taxaceae). T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's
native
> > > to (you guessed it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of
> > > Northeastern U.S. (mainly Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
> > >
> > > lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New
Wye/To
> > > Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
> > >
> > > So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather
blatantly
> > > puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance
because
> > > of yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
> > > Although research was already well advanced regarding yew's
pharmaceutical
> > > wonders in the early 60's, it's probably not that research that N
would
> > > have been aware of so much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of
killing
> > > or saving life, depending on how it was used.
> > >
> > > at all yewsful?
> > >
> > > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > > (860) 523-9225
> >
> >
> > And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
> >
> > The silent sister veiled in white and blue
> > Between the yews, behind the garden god,
> > Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke no word
> >
> > But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
> > Redeem the time, redeem the dream
> > The token of the word unheard, unspoken
> >
> > Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew
> >
> > And after this our exile
> >
> > http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/~gjm11/poems/ashwed.html
> >
> > ajaKasper
> >
>
> Being Kinbotean about it, I can't help mentioning that Yew shrubs and
> hedges are quite common in the District of Columbia. Several spectacular
> specimens can be seen from the computer room window. Didn't know they
> were toxic. None of our pets has shown any ill effects from chewing
> them.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:10:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Paul Mackin
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The
Epigraph)
> >
> > >
> > > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade
we
> > know
> > > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
> > Certainly
> > > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
> > got
> > > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
> > refers
> > > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
> > and
> > > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
> > pederasty),
> > > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
> > indication of
> > > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I
suppose
> > > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's
adamant
> > > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> > >
> > > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
> > meet
> > > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye.
For
> > > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald
apparently
> > > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
> > the
> > > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying
on
> > > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
> > Field's
> > > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
> > gets
> > > hurt...?
> > >
> > > ajaKasper
> > >
> >
> >
> > Fleur must be hurt or at least discouraged by her lack of success in
> > seducing young Charles. And Disa who's truly got it bad for her husband
> > suffers greatly from his rebuffs. Females suffer in predominantly
> > homosexual Zembla at least in some part like Hazel suffers in New Wye..
> >
> >
> >
>
> Good point, and I would add Garh the farmer's daughter. If Zembla is K's
> invention it's almost as if he *wants* women to suffer there, or at least
> for their desires to be thwarted (mainly by Charles himself). I wonder to
> what extent Zembla is therefore a *negation* of the New Wye world K finds
> himself in. (And what happens when matter and anti-matter meet?)
>
> akaJasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:10:16 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: NPPF Request Host List
>
> Using the Vintage International Paperback:
>
> July 14: Foreword - Jasper Fidget
>
> July 21: Canto One -- cfa
>
> July 28: Canto Two - David Morris
>
> Aug. 4: Canto Three -- Tim Strzechowski
>
> Aug. 11: Canto Four - The Great Quail
>
> Aug. 18: pp. 71-93 through lines 47-48 commentary-- Keith McMullen
> (s~Z/slothenvypride)
>
> Aug. 25: pp. 93-113 through lines 86-90 commentary - Don Corathers
>
> Sept. 1: pp. 114-135 through line 130 commentary - Jasper Fidget
>
> Sept. 8: pp. 135-154 through line 171 commentary - M. Joseph
>
> Sept. 15: pp. 154-174 through line 275 commentary - Vincent A. Maeder
> and Perry Sams
>
> Sept. 22: pp. 174-194 through line 376 commentary - Scott Badger
>
> Sept. 29: pp. 194-215 through lines 433-434 commentary -- Bekah
>
> Oct. 6: pp. 215-235 through lines 609-614 commentary - David Morris
>
> Oct. 13: pp. 235-254 through lines 734-735 commentary -- Paul Mackin
>
> Oct. 20: pp. 254-273 through line 949 commentary - Elaine M.M. Bell and
> Terrance
>
> Oct. 27: pp. 273-301 - Heikki and Otto
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:22:48 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of The Great Quail
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:59 AM
> > To: The Whole Sick Crew
> > Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
> >
> > Jasper writes,
> >
> > > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > > that is exactly),
> >
> > I can see that, certainly. One thing that strikes me about Zembla is how
> > open and acceptable homosexuality is, particularly among the ruling
> > classes.
> > There is almost an expectation that young Zemblan men will dally with
one
> > another, not to mention page boys and the like. This is especially
> > powerful
> > given the time the book was written and takes place -- America in the
> > 1950s.
> >
> > It's actually one of the aspects of Kinbote's story that humanizes him
for
> > me. Even though he treats women contemptuously, there's something moving
> > in
> > his need to create a land where his own sexuality is normal. Though I
> > certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities with a
certain
> > degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
> >
> > --Quail
>
>
> Mockery yes -- I got that strongly from the "Palace transformed into a
> circus" reference on 208, and K's pursuit of boys in New Wye has the feel
of
> caricature to me. I agree that in this respect and in others, viewing
> Zembla as the invention of a place where Kinbote can find belonging offers
> us a humanizing aspect of the character. But on the other hand, Kinbote
> makes himself the King of this place, and peoples it with servants and
loyal
> accomplices, the antagonists petty thugs and dull-witted brutes; it goes
> beyond simple belonging, and into the realm of controlling.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3417
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
> ------------------------------
.> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:38:04 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> > From: Elainemmbell@aol.com [mailto:Elainemmbell@aol.com]
> >
> > In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > jasper@hatguild.org writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
> > (Taxaceae). T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's native
> > to (you guessed it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of
> > Northeastern U.S. (mainly Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
> >
> > lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New
Wye/To
> > Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
> >
> > So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather
blatantly
> > puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance
because
> > of yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
> > Although research was already well advanced regarding yew's
pharmaceutical
> > wonders in the early 60's, it's probably not that research that N would
> > have been aware of so much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of
killing
> > or saving life, depending on how it was used.
> >
> > at all yewsful?
> >
> > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > (860) 523-9225
>
>
> And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
>
> The silent sister veiled in white and blue
> Between the yews, behind the garden god,
> Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke no word
>
> But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
> Redeem the time, redeem the dream
> The token of the word unheard, unspoken
>
> Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew
>
> And after this our exile
>
> http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/~gjm11/poems/ashwed.html
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:42:37 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Toby G Levy
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 2:08 PM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
> >
> > A couple of minor disagreements:
> >
> > Page 20
> > "his abundant gray hair looked berimed in the sun"
> >
> > Jasper said it is an alternate spelling of "berhymed" but I say it is a
> > verbification of rime as in ice coating. Shade is outside in the cold
> > and his beard appeared to covered with ice.
> >
> > Page 22
> > "Parthenocissus Hall"
> >
> > Parthenocissus is a grape vine, and as as such VN is either trying to
> > give an image as a place where wine is drunk, where rumors are exchanged
> > or an vine covered building...or all three?
> >
> > Toby
>
>
> The OED has "berhyme" and "berime" as alternates, and doesn't have
"berime"
> as a verb form of "rime", but I'll grant that "rimed" makes more sense in
> the context.
>
> I missed this definition of Parthenocissus, I think because the potential
> transposition jumped out right away -- good catch.
>
>
http://www.bluebellnursery.com/cgi-bin/catalogue.cgi?cat=c&genus=Parthenocis
> sus
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:51:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
characters
> > are
> > practically begging to be read that way.)
> >
> > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated that
> > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > Charles
> > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
> > fron a
> > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> >
> > David Morris
> >
>
> Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade we
know
> from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
Certainly
> for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even got
> the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and refers
> often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail and
> escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
pederasty),
> it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no indication
of
> homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I suppose
> Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's adamant
> insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
>
> I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
meet
> with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye. For
> instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald apparently
> resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of the
> gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying on
> Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
Field's
> idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody gets
> hurt...?
>
> ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:56:05 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> On
> > Behalf Of jbor
> >
> >
> > But there are errors and incongruities in Kinbote's writing, such as the
> > "your favorite" in the second paragraph of the Foreword, which is
> > grammatically and cohesively inconsistent with the rest of that
paragraph.
> > Nabokov has had Kinbote write deliberately in this manner, and it's not
> > the
> > way Nabokov would write a Foreword to a critical edition of, say _Eugene
> > Onegin_. Sure, there are flashes of inspired writing, but Kinbote is
also
> > pathologically verbose and he is unable to control the tone of his
> > writing,
> > and much of what he does write, and the way he it is written, is
> > inappropriate to the context in which he is writing, and these are
> > stylistic
> > flaws which Nabokov has consciously endowed him with as an aspect of the
> > characterisation.
> >
> > It's worth following the hypothesis through.
> >
> > best
>
> The "your favorite" incongruity seems rather more blatant than a
"stylistic
> flaw"; I think when something stands out as obviously as this does, it has
> to be a clue to something. Certainly it's an aside from one person to
> another, whether that first person is Kinbote or otherwise.
>
> akaJasper
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:35:09 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: VLVL2 and NPPF: Missed Communication
>
> > From: Tim Strzechowski [mailto:dedalus204@comcast.net]
> >
> > > If missed communication can be taken as Zoyd's disconnectedness with
the
> > > world around him, then Kinbote becomes an easy parallel. My sense of
> > > chapter one of VL (and I haven't read it in over a decade, so this one
> > > chapter I read yesterday feels fairly new to me), is of a sort of Rip
> > van
> > > Winkle waking up to a world that has changed while he slept, but not
> > > realizing it right away (not getting the message).
> > >
> > > Similarly, one approach to PF is to view Kinbote (as the alias of
> > Russian
> > > scholar V. Botkin) as one who feels dispossessed by his homeland, left
> > in
> > > the past as it were by the new Soviet system to which he doesn't find
> > any
> > > connection, and Zembla is the homeland he creates to replace it.
> > Neither
> > > character is living in the world as it is in the present.
> > >
> >
> > Excellent comparison between the two characters. Curiously, it's made
all
> > the more compelling because one work is told in 3rd person and the other
> > in
> > 1st person, no? I wonder how the narrative voice impacts the ways in
> > which
> > we, as readers, perceive the missed communications?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Doesn't the question of authorial authority enter into this? Don't we
find
> a 3rd person narrative more authoritative than that of 1st person?
Perhaps
> we are conditioned to suspect the 1st person voice, reduce it immediately
to
> opinion and limited perspective, while the 3rd person voice has that
> compelling pretension to omniscience. Does this trust in a 3rd person
voice
> imply our susceptibility to control by others? If so, with a missed
> communication, I think in a 3rd person narrative we are less suspicious of
> the *origin* of the message. When told by the god-narrator that it
exists,
> then we assume that yes, it must exist. If Pynchon is concerned with
> methods of control, then why assume in his narrative voice one such
method?
> Or does he work consciously to undermine that voice?
>
> A parallel way in which an authoritative voice speaks in VL is through the
> media: for the most part, it's a third person narrative, and for the most
> part, its audience doesn't question its authority. The media must comment
> on the world for people stuck to couches, and some of those same people
feel
> compelled to be commented on. Are the media so different from literary
> critics like Kinbote, predatorily finding a subject to fix upon at a cost
> unknown and perhaps irrelevant to them? And isn't being in the first
> edition of John Shade's "Pale Fire" something like being featured on "Good
> Morning America"?
>
> akaJasper
>
> ------------------------------
> In a message dated 7/16/2003 9:38:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jasper@hatguild.org writes:
>
> > And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
> >
>
> Nice! Thanks Jasper...
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 10:53:43 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 09:51, Jasper Fidget wrote:
> > > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
characters
> > > are
> > > practically begging to be read that way.)
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
that
> > > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > > Charles
> > > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness
stemming
> > > fron a
> > > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> >
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade we
know
> > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
Certainly
> > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
got
> > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
refers
> > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
and
> > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
pederasty),
> > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
indication of
> > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I suppose
> > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's adamant
> > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> >
> > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
meet
> > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye. For
> > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald apparently
> > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
the
> > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying on
> > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
Field's
> > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
gets
> > hurt...?
> >
> > ajaKasper
> >
>
>
> Fleur must be hurt or at least discouraged by her lack of success in
> seducing young Charles. And Disa who's truly got it bad for her husband
> suffers greatly from his rebuffs. Females suffer in predominantly
> homosexual Zembla at least in some part like Hazel suffers in New Wye..
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:58:33 -0400
> From: The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Jasper writes,
>
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
(whatever
> > that is exactly),
>
> I can see that, certainly. One thing that strikes me about Zembla is how
> open and acceptable homosexuality is, particularly among the ruling
classes.
> There is almost an expectation that young Zemblan men will dally with one
> another, not to mention page boys and the like. This is especially
powerful
> given the time the book was written and takes place -- America in the
1950s.
>
> It's actually one of the aspects of Kinbote's story that humanizes him for
> me. Even though he treats women contemptuously, there's something moving
in
> his need to create a land where his own sexuality is normal. Though I
> certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities with a certain
> degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
>
> - --Quail
>
> ------------------------------
>> Date: 16 Jul 2003 11:03:39 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 09:38, Jasper Fidget wrote:
> > > From: Elainemmbell@aol.com [mailto:Elainemmbell@aol.com]
> > >
> > > In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > jasper@hatguild.org writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
> > > (Taxaceae). T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's
native
> > > to (you guessed it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of
> > > Northeastern U.S. (mainly Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
> > >
> > > lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New
Wye/To
> > > Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
> > >
> > > So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather
blatantly
> > > puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance
because
> > > of yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
> > > Although research was already well advanced regarding yew's
pharmaceutical
> > > wonders in the early 60's, it's probably not that research that N
would
> > > have been aware of so much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of
killing
> > > or saving life, depending on how it was used.
> > >
> > > at all yewsful?
> > >
> > > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > > (860) 523-9225
> >
> >
> > And this from Eliot's "Ash Wednesday":
> >
> > The silent sister veiled in white and blue
> > Between the yews, behind the garden god,
> > Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke no word
> >
> > But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
> > Redeem the time, redeem the dream
> > The token of the word unheard, unspoken
> >
> > Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew
> >
> > And after this our exile
> >
> > http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/~gjm11/poems/ashwed.html
> >
> > ajaKasper
> >
>
> Being Kinbotean about it, I can't help mentioning that Yew shrubs and
> hedges are quite common in the District of Columbia. Several spectacular
> specimens can be seen from the computer room window. Didn't know they
> were toxic. None of our pets has shown any ill effects from chewing
> them.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:10:01 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Paul Mackin
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:54 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The
Epigraph)
> >
> > >
> > > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade
we
> > know
> > > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
> > Certainly
> > > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
> > got
> > > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
> > refers
> > > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
> > and
> > > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
> > pederasty),
> > > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
> > indication of
> > > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I
suppose
> > > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's
adamant
> > > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> > >
> > > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
> > meet
> > > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye.
For
> > > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald
apparently
> > > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
> > the
> > > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying
on
> > > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
> > Field's
> > > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
> > gets
> > > hurt...?
> > >
> > > ajaKasper
> > >
> >
> >
> > Fleur must be hurt or at least discouraged by her lack of success in
> > seducing young Charles. And Disa who's truly got it bad for her husband
> > suffers greatly from his rebuffs. Females suffer in predominantly
> > homosexual Zembla at least in some part like Hazel suffers in New Wye..
> >
> >
> >
>
> Good point, and I would add Garh the farmer's daughter. If Zembla is K's
> invention it's almost as if he *wants* women to suffer there, or at least
> for their desires to be thwarted (mainly by Charles himself). I wonder to
> what extent Zembla is therefore a *negation* of the New Wye world K finds
> himself in. (And what happens when matter and anti-matter meet?)
>
> akaJasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:10:16 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: NPPF Request Host List
>
> Using the Vintage International Paperback:
>
> July 14: Foreword - Jasper Fidget
>
> July 21: Canto One -- cfa
>
> July 28: Canto Two - David Morris
>
> Aug. 4: Canto Three -- Tim Strzechowski
>
> Aug. 11: Canto Four - The Great Quail
>
> Aug. 18: pp. 71-93 through lines 47-48 commentary-- Keith McMullen
> (s~Z/slothenvypride)
>
> Aug. 25: pp. 93-113 through lines 86-90 commentary - Don Corathers
>
> Sept. 1: pp. 114-135 through line 130 commentary - Jasper Fidget
>
> Sept. 8: pp. 135-154 through line 171 commentary - M. Joseph
>
> Sept. 15: pp. 154-174 through line 275 commentary - Vincent A. Maeder
> and Perry Sams
>
> Sept. 22: pp. 174-194 through line 376 commentary - Scott Badger
>
> Sept. 29: pp. 194-215 through lines 433-434 commentary -- Bekah
>
> Oct. 6: pp. 215-235 through lines 609-614 commentary - David Morris
>
> Oct. 13: pp. 235-254 through lines 734-735 commentary -- Paul Mackin
>
> Oct. 20: pp. 254-273 through line 949 commentary - Elaine M.M. Bell and
> Terrance
>
> Oct. 27: pp. 273-301 - Heikki and Otto
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:22:48 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of The Great Quail
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:59 AM
> > To: The Whole Sick Crew
> > Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
> >
> > Jasper writes,
> >
> > > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > > that is exactly),
> >
> > I can see that, certainly. One thing that strikes me about Zembla is how
> > open and acceptable homosexuality is, particularly among the ruling
> > classes.
> > There is almost an expectation that young Zemblan men will dally with
one
> > another, not to mention page boys and the like. This is especially
> > powerful
> > given the time the book was written and takes place -- America in the
> > 1950s.
> >
> > It's actually one of the aspects of Kinbote's story that humanizes him
for
> > me. Even though he treats women contemptuously, there's something moving
> > in
> > his need to create a land where his own sexuality is normal. Though I
> > certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities with a
certain
> > degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
> >
> > --Quail
>
>
> Mockery yes -- I got that strongly from the "Palace transformed into a
> circus" reference on 208, and K's pursuit of boys in New Wye has the feel
of
> caricature to me. I agree that in this respect and in others, viewing
> Zembla as the invention of a place where Kinbote can find belonging offers
> us a humanizing aspect of the character. But on the other hand, Kinbote
> makes himself the King of this place, and peoples it with servants and
loyal
> accomplices, the antagonists petty thugs and dull-witted brutes; it goes
> beyond simple belonging, and into the realm of controlling.
>
> Jasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3417
> ********************************
>
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