Subject
Re: the meaning of preterist
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JM/CK: to repeat Sylvia Plath: ³For me, writing verse is an evasion of the
real job of writing.²
Shade is not a real poet, more VN¹s parody of a mundane campus lecturer with
poetic pretensions, occasionally rising to the occasion! But Sylvia¹s point
is that poets good and bad can fudge it. There¹s no obligation to avoid
ambiguity or explain anything.
With Shade¹s preterist I may be a few small steps ahead of you both, if only
because
(i) 6 years of Latin (1941-7) taught me such basics as the multi-layered
preposition praeter which takes the accusative to provide an endless array
of other words. It is also a standalone adverb. The prime meaning is ³past²
or ³beyond,² but there are dozens of other meanings: ³except,² ³along,²
³unless,² ³besides,² etc. In turn, praeter owes much to prae which takes the
ablative (don¹t ask) meaning ³before,² ³in front of,² ³in comparison with,²
³under pressure from,² etc. The two, when incorporated into loan words,
often undergo the spelling simplications (preter- and pre-) and, horror, can
be mangled and confused. Does a Praetorian Guard go before or after?
When thousands of invented, inkhorn, Latinate words were added to English
(17-18-19th centures) quite artificially on top of the thousands of older,
more ³genuine² Latin imports, the problem of relating meaning to
form/roots/etc mount beyond simplistic etymologies and dictionary
definitions. Preter- is a natural preposition for Grammarians when dreaming
up fancy names for past tenses. Thus English ³preterite² (US ³preterit) is
BOTH noun AND adjective for the past-simple tense. You probably have no idea
how complex the ³past tenses² are, even in English. We say ³I wish I knew²
without a moment¹s thought. Technically, we say that knew here is tagged as
hypothetical non-present! But I digress.
(ii) I can probably add more than you¹ll ever need to CK¹s comment on
Biblical Preterism. I recorded and studied the CRI radio show ³The Bible
Answer Man² over about 5 years when I lived in the Bay Area. Preterism is a
major topic in Biblical prophecy with bewildering schisms, as you might
expect from those who pore over each Hebrew and Greek word seeking signs.
The term is related somewhat vaguely with Hebrew past tenses. Here¹s the
gist: some prophecies seem to have been fulfilled already. (Isiah and Jesus
birth) Both prophecy and fulfillment are past.¹ But what if the real date
for the prophecy antedates the fulfillment. Daniel being the major example.
See
http://planetpreterist.com/news-5042.html
There now: preterists have many dedicted, disputatious websites!
Preterist n. One who supports Preterism. Adj. pertaining or related to
Preterism. Also Preteristic
Preterism n. Some diverse theories about which biblical prophecies have been
fulfilled and which await fulfillment.
CK¹s correctly notes one of the important ongoing Preterist disputes. Jesus¹
prediction of the 70AD annihilation.¹ Another is
the Second Coming which has been predicted¹ several times from clear¹
evidence, in spite of Jesus¹ warning (Nobody, not even Jesus, knows but the
Father) For those predictions currently showing a date later than tomorrow,
Wednesday APRIL FIRST, 2009, all is well, SO FAR. For the many who gave a
date now PAST, say Jan 1st 1000 or Jan 1st 2000, it¹s time to wriggle un
peu. See e.g., Skeptical Inquirer for the cunning wriggles. One of the best
was the Seventh Day Adventist wriggle in the late 19th century: the Second
Coming had occurred spot on the day given. Christ was holding up pro tem.
Which meaning of the NOUN ³preterist² did VN have in mind via Shade¹s line
79? Well, damn it, Shade the poet DEFINES HIS MEANING. ³One who collects
cold nests.² True, it¹s a sort of Ambrose-Biercian, aphoristic definition,
but not one to be sneezed at. When a poet offers a definition prends garde à
toi! He may want you to think of failed post-dictions in some vague way.
Once-warm false-memories now cold? Kinbote throws some light. He¹s VN¹s
prose writer, more reliable, less evasive, as Plath implies. But for once,
Kinbote tries to play poetical and his Zemblan quatrain explains how quick
(hypocritical?) we are to praise the past: ³the bride/When tumbled ...²
CTaH
On 31/03/2009 14:23, "Carolyn Kunin" <chaiselongue@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:41 PM, jansymello wrote: You stressed the word
> preterist. Do you have any interpretations of your own?
>
> Dear Jansy,
>
> The word has only two usages that I am aware of -- one is grammatical (Hebrew
> has a preterist "mood" if you like, neither passé composé nor passé simple),
> the other is a particular, according to some "heretical", interpretation of
> the bible.* Neither of which makes sense in the context of the poem, except
> possibly in the sense of "heretic", which at least works grammatically but
> still needs explanation. In the wilder flights of my own reading of PF, I have
> conjectured the possibility of parricide (a word which does occur in the poem)
> which would in this case mean matricide, and the fact that Charles Kinbote's
> name bears an uncanny resemblance to Carolyn Lukin's. I have thought it
> interesting that the Shade house lies between that of a judge and that of
> Shade's (possibly mental) physician. I have conjectured that the two were each
> keeping an eye on the troubled quandam youth, who may have been the six-year
> old offender mentioned in the poem.
>
> As this remains even to me wildly conjectural, I wondered if there are any
> other more plausible interpretations as to what Nabokov &/or Shade intended or
> why, which is why I asked.
>
> Carolyn
>
> * It has to do with Jesus' own belief that he was in fact heralding in the end
> of days, and the belief by some that he was correct and that the destruction
> of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 "AD" was the real apocalypse prophesied by
> Jesus. Ironically this is considered heretical by most churches who believe we
> have not yet reached the "end of days."
>
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real job of writing.²
Shade is not a real poet, more VN¹s parody of a mundane campus lecturer with
poetic pretensions, occasionally rising to the occasion! But Sylvia¹s point
is that poets good and bad can fudge it. There¹s no obligation to avoid
ambiguity or explain anything.
With Shade¹s preterist I may be a few small steps ahead of you both, if only
because
(i) 6 years of Latin (1941-7) taught me such basics as the multi-layered
preposition praeter which takes the accusative to provide an endless array
of other words. It is also a standalone adverb. The prime meaning is ³past²
or ³beyond,² but there are dozens of other meanings: ³except,² ³along,²
³unless,² ³besides,² etc. In turn, praeter owes much to prae which takes the
ablative (don¹t ask) meaning ³before,² ³in front of,² ³in comparison with,²
³under pressure from,² etc. The two, when incorporated into loan words,
often undergo the spelling simplications (preter- and pre-) and, horror, can
be mangled and confused. Does a Praetorian Guard go before or after?
When thousands of invented, inkhorn, Latinate words were added to English
(17-18-19th centures) quite artificially on top of the thousands of older,
more ³genuine² Latin imports, the problem of relating meaning to
form/roots/etc mount beyond simplistic etymologies and dictionary
definitions. Preter- is a natural preposition for Grammarians when dreaming
up fancy names for past tenses. Thus English ³preterite² (US ³preterit) is
BOTH noun AND adjective for the past-simple tense. You probably have no idea
how complex the ³past tenses² are, even in English. We say ³I wish I knew²
without a moment¹s thought. Technically, we say that knew here is tagged as
hypothetical non-present! But I digress.
(ii) I can probably add more than you¹ll ever need to CK¹s comment on
Biblical Preterism. I recorded and studied the CRI radio show ³The Bible
Answer Man² over about 5 years when I lived in the Bay Area. Preterism is a
major topic in Biblical prophecy with bewildering schisms, as you might
expect from those who pore over each Hebrew and Greek word seeking signs.
The term is related somewhat vaguely with Hebrew past tenses. Here¹s the
gist: some prophecies seem to have been fulfilled already. (Isiah and Jesus
birth) Both prophecy and fulfillment are past.¹ But what if the real date
for the prophecy antedates the fulfillment. Daniel being the major example.
See
http://planetpreterist.com/news-5042.html
There now: preterists have many dedicted, disputatious websites!
Preterist n. One who supports Preterism. Adj. pertaining or related to
Preterism. Also Preteristic
Preterism n. Some diverse theories about which biblical prophecies have been
fulfilled and which await fulfillment.
CK¹s correctly notes one of the important ongoing Preterist disputes. Jesus¹
prediction of the 70AD annihilation.¹ Another is
the Second Coming which has been predicted¹ several times from clear¹
evidence, in spite of Jesus¹ warning (Nobody, not even Jesus, knows but the
Father) For those predictions currently showing a date later than tomorrow,
Wednesday APRIL FIRST, 2009, all is well, SO FAR. For the many who gave a
date now PAST, say Jan 1st 1000 or Jan 1st 2000, it¹s time to wriggle un
peu. See e.g., Skeptical Inquirer for the cunning wriggles. One of the best
was the Seventh Day Adventist wriggle in the late 19th century: the Second
Coming had occurred spot on the day given. Christ was holding up pro tem.
Which meaning of the NOUN ³preterist² did VN have in mind via Shade¹s line
79? Well, damn it, Shade the poet DEFINES HIS MEANING. ³One who collects
cold nests.² True, it¹s a sort of Ambrose-Biercian, aphoristic definition,
but not one to be sneezed at. When a poet offers a definition prends garde à
toi! He may want you to think of failed post-dictions in some vague way.
Once-warm false-memories now cold? Kinbote throws some light. He¹s VN¹s
prose writer, more reliable, less evasive, as Plath implies. But for once,
Kinbote tries to play poetical and his Zemblan quatrain explains how quick
(hypocritical?) we are to praise the past: ³the bride/When tumbled ...²
CTaH
On 31/03/2009 14:23, "Carolyn Kunin" <chaiselongue@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:41 PM, jansymello wrote: You stressed the word
> preterist. Do you have any interpretations of your own?
>
> Dear Jansy,
>
> The word has only two usages that I am aware of -- one is grammatical (Hebrew
> has a preterist "mood" if you like, neither passé composé nor passé simple),
> the other is a particular, according to some "heretical", interpretation of
> the bible.* Neither of which makes sense in the context of the poem, except
> possibly in the sense of "heretic", which at least works grammatically but
> still needs explanation. In the wilder flights of my own reading of PF, I have
> conjectured the possibility of parricide (a word which does occur in the poem)
> which would in this case mean matricide, and the fact that Charles Kinbote's
> name bears an uncanny resemblance to Carolyn Lukin's. I have thought it
> interesting that the Shade house lies between that of a judge and that of
> Shade's (possibly mental) physician. I have conjectured that the two were each
> keeping an eye on the troubled quandam youth, who may have been the six-year
> old offender mentioned in the poem.
>
> As this remains even to me wildly conjectural, I wondered if there are any
> other more plausible interpretations as to what Nabokov &/or Shade intended or
> why, which is why I asked.
>
> Carolyn
>
> * It has to do with Jesus' own belief that he was in fact heralding in the end
> of days, and the belief by some that he was correct and that the destruction
> of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 "AD" was the real apocalypse prophesied by
> Jesus. Ironically this is considered heretical by most churches who believe we
> have not yet reached the "end of days."
>
Search archive with Google:
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=site:listserv.ucsb.edu&HL=en
Contact the Editors: mailto:nabokv-l@utk.edu,nabokv-l@holycross.edu
Visit Zembla: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/zembla.htm
View Nabokv-L policies: http://web.utk.edu/~sblackwe/EDNote.htm
Visit "Nabokov Online Journal:" http://www.nabokovonline.com
Manage subscription options: http://listserv.ucsb.edu/